LogicFactory - Testers needed!

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exfret
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Re: LogicFactory - Testers needed!

Postby exfret » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:21 pm

robly18 wrote:Holy crap, exfret. Andy was right when he told me to put this on the forums, this is great feedback.

Thanks! I always like it when people give lots of attention to my creations, so I decided I'd give yours its due attention.

robly18 wrote:Aight so, here's my responses to some of your things:

You mean alright, right?

exfret wrote:To improve playtesting:
-Tell us what stuff does, either in this thread or whatever, just say the specific features of each thing and what they do. It doesn't have to be a step-by-step tutorial, but it would be helpful to do this if you add any more complex things in (I'm doing okay guessing what does so far, though).
-If possible, make it so it saves your level. (Probably less of a priority).
-Give names to levels or do something else that helps me find specific levels.
-Please more text. I mean, adding text to buttons can't be that hard, can it? And, it helps me know what various buttons do.


robly18 wrote:The first part.. Well, I don't want to put stuff in this thread, because I do want to make sure that the game is good enough that the players get it by themselves.

If the only people playing get the game from teh forum or are your friends, then...
a) They come from the forum and can just read the thread.
b) Are your friends, in which case you can explain the game to them.
The players don't necessarily have to get it by themselves. Some people, like me, can figure it out, while NealCruco couldn't. Now, would you rather have your game rendered unplayable to people like NealCruco, or put the guide I just posted that I didn't mention until now in the OP?

robly18 wrote:However, I also want to avoid using text, and have no idea how to convey the mechanics without using it.

I liked your pictures. Much less than 1000 words in there though. If you're trying to be minimalist (which it sounds like you are), you could look at TwoDots (a free app), A Dark Room (on the web, also an app), or CandyBox 2. Although the latter two use lots of text, they don't give the player any directions, but you can still figure out what to do. You could also see if anything Andy's done in teh GSim strikes your fancy. In the end, I think you'll have to put in some extra text, but doing so with a special font/color should make it okay. Is there a reason you hate text so much other than its complete ugliness if used improperly?

robly18 wrote:As to making it save the level, it certainly would be possible, but would be a bit of a hassle and would make the code certainly uglier.

Probably good practice, though, if that's what you're aiming for. If you're afraid of breaking something, you can always create a 'test' version separate from the one you'll show your friends.

robly18 wrote:Giving names is quite possible: the hardest part about that sounds like it would be to draw the box in which you'd say the level name.

I just want something that gives you more info on which level's which. If you can't figure out a way, then that's okay.

robly18 wrote:As for more text... Like I said, I'm trying to avoid using text, but I guess some buttons, like the erase one, are indeed a bit vague.

Erase wasn't too vague. The small amount of vagueness it does have, though, is dangerous. I guess my guide explains most stuff anyways.

robly18 wrote:Huh? Which kind of buttons? The arrows or the buttons like "delete" and such? To me, it seems like they give you enough feedback as is

Usually, when you click on a button, normally in a menu, some sound comes on and the button's appearance changes to signify you clicked on it. Almost every game has some feature like this. Just go into GSim, I'm sure you'll see. Just hold down the mouse button when you click the menu button to see what happens. Hopefully it does have this...

robly18 wrote:Hm. Well, I got nothing. I guess that's what happens when you try to make a game around experimentation.

Just change the picture.

robly18 wrote:I'm sorry, but this looks like way, way too much of a hassle. I mean, if I run out of things to do, I might attempt to do it, but as is, I'd need to overhaul most of my class hierarchies.

Any way Andy could help you out or find a way to solve your problem?

robly18 wrote:My main problem with these two would be how to do it, exactly. If you have any suggestions, feel free to give them.

First: Receivers could just be the color of what they receive. Have a diagonal line for 2 inputs. Bottom left would be the first input, top right the second. Open and crossed circles get more complicated, especially level 20 (which is confusing with the 4 input thing), so you could just include them only when you click on the receiver.
Second: Just create separate images for when the robot is stacked showing the blocks it has stacked on it. Should be easy enough, right? You could at least show a box below the top one. It can just be gray if it's too hard creating images for all stacking combinations.

robly18 wrote:The first one sounds possible, but the second one... Well, what is fixed or not is kind of set in stone by a flag set in my level editor (read: notepad) and is level-wide.

Well, all I want is a lock in the top left corner of the square or something. I don't understand why this is so hard.

robly18 wrote:As always, any suggestion as to how I could do this?

How about you include a counter. Hopefully you can do it in a way that doesn't look ugly. Also make sure it counts down so that it's obvious when the level's gonna end.

robly18 wrote:The former is, indeed a small thing and not really a priority. Also sounds like something I should've planned ahead for, as right now seems like it would be a bit too late.

Ahh. No sounds. Seems like something you could practice, too. Music and sounds would definitely make it seem a lot more professional, though.

robly18 wrote:There already is a level editor... Sorta. Look in the "levelfile.txt". It has the levels and such. However, the inputs and outputs and what the letters mean are indeed hardcoded into the game, and making a custom output maker sounds way, way out of the scope of what I'm doing here.

YAY! Level editor! Could you at least tell me what each letter means? Anyways, good job making a level editor before I even asked for one!

robly18 wrote:Right. A bit too much for what I can handle (getting it to be as-is was already difficult), so don't expect many of these to be added. If I ever make a sequel, however, I'll look into it.

Okay. You could probably include one or two easy-sounding suggestions for the new levels.

robly18 wrote:Added. When machine is going faster, time ticks slower for it.
Incidentally, it has no way of telling time, so it doesn't actually change anything.

But then, how does it keep its constant speed and change its speed the instant you tell it to?

robly18 wrote:As for the rest:
I don't plan on going *too* far with it, but I do plan on finishing it. This is my first attempt at a serious game, but I don't plan to spend months developing this. I've learned a lot making this, but now I want to put that knowledge to use from scratch, and not keep working on a game that, looking back on it, looks like it was mostly written by a drunk weasel. However, I do want to get this to at least a playable state. My plan so far is to just keep working on level design and minor features, and once I've gotten that done, share it with my friends.

Maybe next game you should work on coding in more readable way. A sequel sound fun. I am wondering what you're planning to do next, though. Are you ever going to work up to making a 'full' game?
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robly18
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Re: LogicFactory - Testers needed!

Postby robly18 » Sun Jun 08, 2014 8:47 am

Aight so (and yes, I mean aight, not alright. Because english)
I'm just posting here to let you know what the letters and such mean in the level editor. I mean, I would appreciate some help designing levels as it is the second thing I'm worse at (worst thing being drawing).

So, uh, here's the key I guess:
Note: T means no-cross and F means cross

1,2,3,4 - Inputs. Red, yellow, green and blue respectively.

a,b,c,d - Outputs. Colors: read above

e,f- Red-yellow and yellow-red respectively

g,h- Same but with green-blue and vice-versa

i,j-Red output, T and F respectively (yes, the latter is redundant, but I left like like that for the sake of readability)

k,l-Red-Yellow FT or FF; and TT or TF respectively

v^<>- Arrows

mnop- Machine spawns. Directions are the same as the corresponding arrow above.

qr_t- Flip flops. The underscore means there is no character for that direction, because I used it for something else.

s- "If" arrow pointing up

Anything else means nothing. I used underscores, however.

Anyway, at the end of the level there should be two characters. The first one dictates what in the level is locked or not. I'm sure you can figure which number stands for what from experimenting. The second one dictates which note shows up. It goes like this: in the notes.png file there is a 4x4 grid of notes. a is the 0,0th one; b is the 1,0th one and so on; d is the 3,0th and then e is the 0,1th

I'm not sure if this makes much sense, but either way, if you have any questions or requests don't hesitate to tell me.
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NealCruco
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Re: LogicFactory - Testers needed!

Postby NealCruco » Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:11 pm

Ok, I just came back to this thread. I am currently not at home, which means I'm not at my computer. I have read all the posts so far, though.
Robly, I was able to start the game and get into level 1. I clicked the play button, and the robot started moving in a loop. However, I didn't see anything else happening, and certainly didn't get a "Level Won!" message. After messing with the buttons for a bit longer, I gave up, came here, and posted my last message. When I get home, I'll download the latest version of the game, read this thread more carefully, and give some more feedback.
Exfret, thanks for your suggestions. Again, I'll try them out when I get home.

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robly18
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Re: LogicFactory - Testers needed!

Postby robly18 » Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:31 pm

Hm. I guess you guys were right: a way of telling that something is going on is indeed needed. I'll see what I can do. Maybe make the change in green tint be inversely exponential, making it so that it's easy to notice the change at first? Maybe saying in the note to click the speedup button?
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NealCruco
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Re: LogicFactory - Testers needed!

Postby NealCruco » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:44 pm

Trying the game out now. I went back to level 1, clicked play, then clicked ">>>". That made the robot go so fast that I saw ghosting. But even at that high speed, it was maybe 3 seconds before the zig-zag tile was noticeably green. Still playing around with it.
Two more things (for now). When I open the .exe, cmd.exe also opens and starts printing decimal numbers as fast as it can. The numbers look to be in the 60's. (I attached some pictures of this.) Closing cmd (or hitting CTRL-C) also closes the game. What's up with that? And the game window is too large to fit on my screen. I can't resize or maximize it either, which is fine, but I have to to see the entire window.
Again, I'm not done playing around with this game. More feedback coming...unless I get interrupted.
P.S. Robly, when you say "inversely exponential, do you mean something like f(x) = sqrt(x)? I think that could work. Not having the tint brighten at a constant speed might confuse some people, but I can't think of a better alternative.

Edit: Ok, I'm done now. Finished the first four levels. Honestly, there's some entertainment value here, but not much- at least not yet. I expect it to get more challenging than "use the arrows to make a loop for the robot that includes the pickup and drop-off tiles".
Attachments
1.png
The beginning of cmd's output.
1.png (33.95 KiB) Viewed 6993 times
2.png
A sample of what I see after the beginning.
2.png (33.44 KiB) Viewed 6993 times
Last edited by NealCruco on Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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robly18
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Re: LogicFactory - Testers needed!

Postby robly18 » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:09 pm

Aight so

First and foremost, the cmd thing is just the frames per second. I had the print clause commented out, but uncommented it to test something and just didn't bother to turn it off.

As for the game window being too large... Well, shucks. I apologize: I thought the resolution I picked was small enough to fit in most people's screens. I turned off resizing because it just glitched the heck out of the game. It's a tidbit too late to add resizing due to my spaghetti code, though I'll make sure to add such next time I make something.

As for the inversely exponential, you basically got the idea right, though I was thinking something more along the lines of 1 - x^-2. Either way, starts out decreasing at a fast rate and keeps going greener and greener at a slower rate.
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NealCruco
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Re: LogicFactory - Testers needed!

Postby NealCruco » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:14 pm

My resolution, 1366x768, isn't overly small. It's the height of the window that's too large, and I don't know of any common resolutions with a height above 768. What resolution are you developing this on?

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robly18
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Re: LogicFactory - Testers needed!

Postby robly18 » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:17 pm

Well, the window is 876 by 734. Slightly more considering the bar on top. Though now that you mention it, I know what you're talking about.

Decreasing the resolution wouldn't be too much of a hassle, but my main problem would be how to rearrange some of the buttons while keeping reasonable margins between eachother and the borders.
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exfret
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Re: LogicFactory - Testers needed!

Postby exfret » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:45 pm

Not to be nitpicky, but neither of those would be inverse exponential. Inverse exponential would either be 1/e^x or ln(x), possibly with a different base. Also, I think it would still confuse people to have it go on for a while. I think there's no way avoiding the need for a counter.
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robly18
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Re: LogicFactory - Testers needed!

Postby robly18 » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:03 pm

The problem is, I have no idea how to make the counter not clash with everything else.
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